Prelude oil and filter change

[Liverfluke4]

Yes it's quite confusing – and the official service schedule is just as unclear! It calls for servicing every 12,500 miles/12 months - whichever comes first.

But then it goes on to require an engine oil change every 6,000 miles in normal driving conditions, and every 3,000 miles in severe conditions (short journeys, extreme temperatures, dusty environment, etc). It also routinely requires visual inspection of certain items every 6,000 miles. In any case, I agree with you that 12,500 miles feels like quite a stretch and I certainly change the oil in all of my cars more frequently than that.

What are you planning to do? 6,000 or 12,500 miles? Or will you just follow whatever the onboard Maintenance Minder says…?

I’m currently undecided at 1,500 miles over two months.

If I had the time, facilities and inclination todo my own oil and filter changes, like I did on MGs and Minis when I was a youngster, then I certainly would do a change at 6,000. But since I am unlikely to do more than 8,000 before the 1 year service interval comes up, I will probably leave it. I bought a 5 year service package from the dealership and they say 12,500 miles or one year is confirmed by Honda so they will do no more than that, unless I pay extra.

I just don’t like the inconsistency between manual and all other official sources of information.

As an engineer myself, I expect someone put 6,000 miles in the manual for a reason. From my past connections with the motor industry, I know that historically, manufacturers have stretched service intervals to reduce the service cost of corporate fleets. But in a low-stress, computer controlled, Atkinson cycle engine, that doesn’t run all the time,

 

[Alfettaman52]

Your approach sounds very sensible and pragmatic! I do share your concern about the constant pressure on manufacturers to reduce servicing costs: it's good for the fleet buyers, but arguably not so good for subsequent owners.

Here's the relevant page from the user manual, setting out the service requirements. I'm glad it's not just me that thinks it's confusing and inconsistent...

 

[Liverfluke4]

Your approach sounds very sensible and pragmatic! I do share your concern about the constant pressure on manufacturers to reduce servicing costs: it's good for the fleet buyers, but arguably not so good for subsequent owners.

Here's the relevant page from the user manual, setting out the service requirements. I'm glad it's not just me that thinks it's confusing and inconsistent...

View attachment 287

Yeh, that’s the page.
It’s not really ambiguous at all, is it?

 

[Alfettaman52]

Yeh, that’s the page.
It’s not really ambiguous at all, is it?

Here's my interpretation (yours might be different):

"Your new car should be serviced every 12,500 miles, or every 12 months - whichever comes first. But it will also need an engine oil change every 6,000 miles. There are some other things that routinely need to be done every 6,000 miles too, like checking the brakes and maybe changing the oil filter as well. Turning the page, we'll also need to inspect tie rod ends, steering/boots and suspension every 6,000 miles. Oh, and you should get the tyres rotated at the same time. So the service interval is definitely 12 months/12,500 miles - apart from all these other things that need to be done sooner. If you have a pre-paid service plan, your dealer will probably ignore all the extra stuff at 6,000 miles and might just stick to the 12 months/12,500 mile interval. Of course the Maintenance Minder built in to your new car might say something different, so you could either follow the service schedule that we've set out here (in the official manual that came with your car), or you could follow the Maintenance Minder (although it might not flag up the 'every 6,000 miles' items - you'll' have to wait and see). Alternatively, if you'd rather keep it simple, you could just ignore everything we've said here and instead go along with the 12 months/12,500 miles that your authorised Honda dealer is intending to do under the terms of your service plan ."

All clear now..?

 

[PR76UDE47]

I'll eat my shoe if any standard dealer service plan honours that properly and doesn't just stick to the 12.5k/12 months. Of course they should, be they won't.

 

[Alfettaman52]

I'll eat my shoe if any standard dealer service plan honours that properly and doesn't just stick to the 12.5k/12 months. Of course they should, be they won't.

Moments like this make me glad that I can do my own servicing - as well as getting some (rather random) 'official' servicing done by the dealer if I choose to...

 

[Liverfluke4]

Here's my interpretation (yours might be different):

"Your new car should be serviced every 12,500 miles, or every 12 months - whichever comes first. But it will also need an engine oil change every 6,000 miles. There are some other things that routinely need to be done every 6,000 miles too, like checking the brakes and maybe changing the oil filter as well. Turning the page, we'll also need to inspect tie rod ends, steering/boots and suspension every 6,000 miles. Oh, and you should get the tyres rotated at the same time. So the service interval is definitely 12 months/12,500 miles - apart from all these other things that need to be done sooner. If you have a pre-paid service plan, your dealer will probably ignore all the extra stuff at 6,000 miles and might just stick to the 12 months/12,500 mile interval. Of course the Maintenance Minder built in to your new car might say something different, so you could either follow the service schedule that we've set out here (in the official manual that came with your car), or you could follow the Maintenance Minder (although it might not flag up the 'every 6,000 miles' items - you'll' have to wait and see). Alternatively, if you'd rather keep it simple, you could just ignore everything we've said here and instead go along with the 12 months/12,500 miles that your authorised Honda dealer is intending to do under the terms of your service plan ."

All clear now..?

Yes, thanks, you have confirmed my interpretation.
All clear now.

 

[GoZoner11]

Has anybody had their maintenance minder go off? We know it doesn’t go at 500 nor 1,000 mi - maybe it will go at 6,000 mi?

I’ve ~4,000 mi and will have 6,000 in early July (drive from OR to San Diego and back).

When does the minder go off on a CTR?

 

[Liverfluke4]

Has anybody had their maintenance minder go off? We know it doesn’t go at 500 nor 1,000 mi - maybe it will go at 6,000 mi?

I’ve ~4,000 mi and will have 6,000 in early July (drive from OR to San Diego and back).

When does the minder go off on a CTR?

I suspect it’s not aligned with the CTR, more likely with the Civic Hybrid.

 

[PR76UDE47]

I've heard on the Civic it'll give you a percentage oil condition or somesuch? Not sure what menu that's hidden under though, but should give you an idea how you're progressing. Though that could just be a timer/odometer based dumb number.

 

[BlueTiger1]

Changing the lubricant before the first service is useful to satisfy a personal paranoia only... engine will last the same time... the real drawback will be to explain to the next owner why you did a service so soon...
Years ago many peoples changed lubricant every 5000km, me every 10000km... but I was a track day lover... and I had an EP3... big difference between a 8500rpm K20A2 and an hybrid unit...
I sold sports cars for work for years, now I am in the superyacht environment, I often send yacht gearboxes/engines lubricant to analyze and I suggest you to keep money in your pocket for the fuel to go around to get fun!

 

[Alfettaman52]

Changing the lubricant before the first service is useful to satisfy a personal paranoia only...

Not paranoia - data.

It's simply that previous oil analyses on my new car engines have shown wear metals (most notably iron, copper, aluminium and also silicone residue) typically around 100+ppm, falling rapidly to about 20ppm after an early change or two. I choose to get those wear metals out before the 12k mile service - but I'd encourage you to do whatever you think best!

 

[GoZoner11]

I've heard on the Civic it'll give you a percentage oil condition or somesuch? Not sure what menu that's hidden under though, but should give you an idea how you're progressing. Though that could just be a timer/odometer based dumb number.

It shows right up on the main info panel. Counts down from 15%, 10%, 5%, now. It is much more sophisticated than just mileage. To me, it is a bit obtrusive - like how the 'low fuel' warning shows up and you need to 'click off it' to see the normal info.

 

[GoZoner11]

... new car engines have shown wear metals (most notably iron, copper, aluminium and also silicone residue) typically around 100+ppm, falling rapidly to about 20ppm after an early change or two. ...

Maybe the engine is only damaged by >10,000 ppm and 100 ppm is insignificant? What if the 100+ ppm exist but are so small as to do no harm? (Maybe you don't trust Honda to be honest about the first oil change interval; but you do trust the oil analysis company saying X ppm is trouble?)

 

[Alfettaman52]

Maybe the engine is only damaged by >10,000 ppm and 100 ppm is insignificant? What if the 100+ ppm exist but are so small as to do no harm? (Maybe you don't trust Honda to be honest about the first oil change interval; but you do trust the oil analysis company saying X ppm is trouble?)

Good questions! Let's explore...


10,000 ppm wear metals would mean around 40 grams of metal particles circulating in your oil! That’s about the same mass as a full set of piston rings and would clearly be immediately catastrophic for the engine.

100 ppm means around half a gram of metals in the oil. A fully run-in and healthy engine that’s had frequent oil changes might have closer to 5-10 ppm.

Your oil filter will catch anything bigger than about 20 microns, so the particles that remain in the oil will have a range of sizes that are (hopefully) all smaller than this.

Metal particles in the range 5-15 microns are generally considered the most harmful to an engine. That’s because they match the typical thickness of the oil film that separates internal moving parts – so they can get trapped between those surfaces and cause accelerated wear.

When deciding service intervals, a car manufacturer has to balance two conflicting pressures. On the one hand they need to secure the longevity of the vehicle (to avoid warranty claims and reputational damage), but on the other they also need to minimise servicing costs and frequency in order to attract fleet buyers. As a private owner, I don’t have to work with that compromise and can instead service my car in the way that I want to, based on the guidelines provided by the manufacturer, data and evidence from other sources, and also my own observations, knowledge and preference.

I offer these thoughts only because you posed the question. I’m certainly not trying to persuade anyone to do the same as me, and I’m sure that most people won’t! Rather, I’d encourage you to service your car in whatever way makes you feel comfortable…